Coel, I agree, don’t think Cohen was seriously suggesting Saad supported deportations, yet I don’t remember Saad reacting negatively to the comment either.

Oh, I agree. I was thinking from the pov of the British. 🙂

Thanks again for asking, Heather. It was fun, though as I said to you in email, I have a far greater appreciation now of all the effort you put in to ensure your posts are coherent (and free of typos)!

Thanks, Yakaru. Re the Harris/Rubin comparison, our exchange in the other thread wasn’t front of mind when I wrote this. I accept there are differences, but they still seem broadly of the same school to me, though as you say, Harris’ approach to Eiynah was admirably different to Saad’s. Certainly Harris and Rubin seemed to have formed a mutual support group, at least at one time, and when Harris has been on Rubin’s show, I can’t remember anything at all they disagreed with each other on.

I have a small issue with your comment that implies Saad maybe shouldn’t even be talking to someone like Harris, though. He was out of his depth for sure, but I’d like to think he’s learned something and that’s the only way to do it. But regardless, it shouldn’t matter. I’ve probably got fewer credentials than Saad, but have debated with Harris and certainly think we should all be able to do so. Not so much if the topic is neuroscience, perhaps, but I’ll take Harris on re politics and particularly geopolitics any day, and having done so, have found him no less stubborn than Saad on topics I think aren’t that hard to grasp.

And unfortunately, I’ve had reason to question Harris’s intellectual honesty too. As I’ve related before, the email exchange I had with him was disappointing. For instance, despite his rhetoric about taking what terrorists say their reasons are for acting at face value, he can cherry pick with the best of them. I pointed out what bin Laden said were his reasons for turning against the US and later for 9/11, and that the majority of them were political in nature, not religious. He refused to even acknowledge the political reasons, let alone rebut them, and to this day will quote the religious reasons exclusively in support of his position that it’s almost all about Islam. This is also part of why I’m happy to lump him in with the others. It seems more a matter of degree than of kind.

Heather, I think there are plenty of Indians and Africans for whom “British” conjures up images less enlightenment influenced. Maybe it’s because I was born in the States, but empire and racism are the first things that come to my mind too, though I certainly acknowledge Britain’s role in advancing enlightenment values as well.

I take your point, Yakaru, but just to be clear, I believe Saad and Cohen use the terms interchangeably, so when they say Western values, they mean enlightenment values. Call it shorthand between them, as they both know what they mean.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with it in that sense of the word.

It’s funny. “British” has this reputation of being very stiff upper lip etc., but British values are actually quite liberal, humanist, and closely aligned with Enlightenment values. From the outside there’s an alignment with Christianity, but that’s not there anymore except for ceremonial purposes.

It’s similar in NZ. With colonialism we became very British and still have many embarrassing remnants like a blasphemy law and a prayer to start question time in parliament. There’s a nod to just about every religion you can think of in public ceremonies, and nothing for those of us who don’t believe even though we’re the biggest group by far (well over 40%) if you split Christianity into Catholic and Protestant.

Since it’s a couple of weeks now since I watched it, I can’t remember it that well (oh, for the memory of my youth!), but I remember being embarrassed for Saad. Cohen didn’t do anything deliberately to cause that, it was just that Saad hasn’t thought deeply enough about the topic. I think Yakaru’s analysis of how he did is spot on, and I wouldn’t mind betting his subsequent attacks were because he realized he was way out of his league.

I’m going to try and find time to watch this again so I can do a better job of commenting on it.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this Ken!

“British” values aren’t aligned with or opposed by any particular religion, …

Sorry, bad editing, I meant, aren’t *necessarily* aligned with or opposed by any particular religion. Indeed, any religion could adopt them if it wishes, and would be welcome to do so.